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Simcik

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PostSubject: Restarts   Tue 03 Jun 2014, 9:58 am

I move that restarts be changed to match PWC rules going forward.

Should a start be aborted shortly after the start of a race, or a restart occur for any other reason, PWC does not repeat the standing start.

All PWC restarts are rolling starts. Restarts can be single or double file, but they are never standing starts.

Please note this excerpt from the rule book:

2.16.3.7: Aborted Start
An aborted start is one that is called due to problems that may have occurred once the red lights have been switched on, and which has resulted in cars leaving the grid. A second standing-start will not occur. [Emphasis added - Sim] All corner stations will display double-yellow flags. Cars shall follow the safety car until it is deemed safe to re-start the race, at which point, a single-file or double-file rolling restart procedure will occur (see Article 2.155.4). In the event of an aborted start, the 50 minute clock shall begin when the cars leave the grid. Time permitting; the CHIEF STEWARD may stop the countdown of this clock at any point prior to the successful start of the race.


Section 2.16.5 covers restarts in general, and gives the race director the power to choose between a single file or double file restart, but does not allow for a standing restart.

http://www.world-challenge.com/images/rulebook/PWCRuleBook.pdf
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Manuel CR

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PostSubject: Re: Restarts   Tue 03 Jun 2014, 10:07 am

But in that case si not a real ¨Forza¨ restart, the damaged cars should stay damaged and is just matter of grid again. But that will take a lot of time.

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Simcik

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PostSubject: Re: Restarts   Tue 03 Jun 2014, 10:12 am

I was speaking more of restarts in which we quit out and restart from the lobby.

Basically, there's one standing start. If you have to restart, it's a rolling start.

If we were to quit out, all racers would have all of their damage repaired, but we wouldn't do another standing start.
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Ex US Squid

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PostSubject: Re: Restarts   Tue 03 Jun 2014, 6:20 pm

The real series doesnt have to worry about Servers and Lag.   We do.  I feel its fair how we have handled it.  We restart when someone lags out and comes right back ready to race in a lap as if the race hadnt started but sometimes knock the race laps already run down because of time and to be considerate to the fellow drivers across the pond.   I dont mind either way really but I dont feel its much of an issue.  Most wrecks in GTS have been lag right from the start and I appreciate that we give those affected by it the chance to restart sans damage.   Its sportsmanship.
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Simcik

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PostSubject: Re: Restarts   Tue 03 Jun 2014, 9:13 pm

To be clear, I am NOT saying we don't restart a race (back out to the lobby and try again), but that if we do a restart, we don't do a standing start.

So, if we wreck on the start, for example, we back out, add a lap to the lap count, and try again, but this time we drive around for a pace lap and do a rolling start.
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Dr PiiHB


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PostSubject: Re: Restarts   Tue 03 Jun 2014, 9:37 pm

I see both sides and it's a tough thing to decide. Either way is replicating the real series. They don't have lag but also we don't have to worry about wrecking and having damage. Its working fine as is and this is coming from possibly worst standing start car in the gt field. Is a good idea and could be put up for a poll for season 3 maybe? I just race here so I am good for whatever. Either way I love this series.
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PostSubject: Re: Restarts   Wed 04 Jun 2014, 6:28 am

I feel Sim is coming off a race where he was feeling like crud to start with but soldiered through it and was not able to be as sharp and cunning on the restarts which was a bummer because he had a FAST 392R but the results didnt let him show it.   I was bummed out because I wanted him to get on the Podium not only for his sake but also to keep Wolfpack off of it!   He deserved a good finish but I can see the frustration he no doubt has.     

Id like to say to all of you that I respect the input but I also feel when we are forced to restart a few times because of the Xbox live issues that come up sometimes (like Monday night) that the race is already becoming delayed and its nearing 1-3am in the land of tasty tea and crumpets.  If we roll around and do the pace lap and still have to restart again its just that much more time we delay from Oddball and Warspite getting there beauty rest.  Although I dont think Oddball needs it.... so cute and adorable.

Stalker will take all thoughts into consideration and make a judgement call on what is best for the betterment of the racing series.  Unless he announces otherwise it will be business as usual.
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Manuel CR

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PostSubject: Re: Restarts   Wed 04 Jun 2014, 9:57 am

What i mean if you really try to make something as real life it has to be the closest to it, i f we need a restart, everybody just go and lined Up in the front strech in a single file, as a red flag. Then damaged cars can pit and Fix their mecánichal damage and the form again.

And a pace lap will be run and a rolling start take place.
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Dr PiiHB


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PostSubject: Re: Restarts   Wed 04 Jun 2014, 3:40 pm

I would be all for something like that. I love getting as close to a true replica as we can in this game but I know a lot of people aren't as serious as I am about it. Some may say that's going a little far.
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StalkerStang

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PostSubject: Re: Restarts   Wed 04 Jun 2014, 4:50 pm

How real you wanna make it ?????

Like this real????
http://www.world-challenge.com/index.php?option=com_drivers&view=fines&Itemid=163

In all honesty though, my biggest issue with going that route with a rolling start is the extra confusion and chances of incidents it adds.

Everyone pacing at a speed with possible lag issues makes me nervous. Also trying to coordinate everything and getting clear communication out is going to be a problem. I know there are people that already can't hear me in lobby chat.

The extra time it adds like Squid mentioned also is a factor.

At least with what we have now, everyone knows that when we line up for race 1, and it says go, GO!
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Dr PiiHB


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PostSubject: Re: Restarts   Wed 04 Jun 2014, 5:48 pm

Yeah let's do that. Make some money for nein shiza.
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ROSCOEpCOTRAIN


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PostSubject: Re: Restarts   Wed 04 Jun 2014, 7:06 pm

As I have ran in many many series with different starts / one with rolling starts and no mics
I assure you it is not to difficult, nor complicated in fact 60%less restarting... The rule was can't go till the car ahead of you go's... As for lagging on pace lap give room if everyone around you is lagging 99% percent of the time it's you
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Dr PiiHB


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PostSubject: Re: Restarts   Wed 04 Jun 2014, 7:08 pm

This is true. I prefer no mic series. They are cleaner and like roscoe said they tend to be much better on starts and resarts.
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ROSCOEpCOTRAIN


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PostSubject: Re: Restarts   Wed 04 Jun 2014, 7:11 pm

Dr PiiHB wrote:
I would be all for something like that. I love getting as close to a true replica as we can in this game but I know a lot of people aren't as serious as I am about it. Some may say that'is going a little far.
Not the place to insinuate you have more dedication than other people...
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SaintedPlacebo4

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PostSubject: Re: Restarts   Wed 04 Jun 2014, 8:57 pm

I dont care much fro the dont go til the guy in front goes, because then the leaders have a head start, and if you are behind someone asleep at the wheel you pay the price. I always liked the whole, leader nails it so everyone gets to react. It shakes things up a little. As for the thing stalker posted. damn man, a grand for movement at the start? i didnt see how much movement there was but golly that sounds kinda stupidly steep.
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ROSCOEpCOTRAIN


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PostSubject: Re: Restarts   Wed 04 Jun 2014, 9:52 pm

Then qualify up front
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Ex US Squid

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PostSubject: Re: Restarts   Thu 05 Jun 2014, 2:00 am

Or... or... we hit home the fact that EVERYONE needs to start hardwiring their xbox on race nights if possible because that will alleviate alot of the connectivity issues that may be sluggish attempting to transmit via wireless routers.   I have expensive and reliable internet that I can get away with wireless most of the time but I dont take the chance and hardwire directly from the modem to the 360 with a decent Cat5e cable.   

I know some guys are still running off wireless routers and, with the Live servers being more temperamental it makes more sense now to eliminate all the excess problems we can on our ends to ensure best connection speeds can be achieved.   I know for a fact that this does make a difference.  The lag spikes will be lessened and sometimes possibly avoided all together.   

I appreciate all of you reading through this post and that you all will double check connections on race nights.  This should be the first step.   If you arent willing to take this step to help connection quality when you have the means to( I understand that there might be a driver out there that just cant due to living situation) then all other comments on lag are void because you dont care enough.  Im not calling anyone one out specifically.  You guys all are decent people and will attempt it if possible.  If, after we all attempt this step, there are further issues I would be on board to attempt more steps like the mics or a pace lap to get all connections settled down before calling a grid start on time like we do in Race 2.   

Thanks
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SaintedPlacebo4

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PostSubject: Re: Restarts   Thu 05 Jun 2014, 4:17 am

This past race a few of us had trouble getting in (i am hardwired 60down 12 up)and i very rarely have issues. But then when i was trouble shooting i saw that the servers were being worked on and stuff on microsoft's end. That being said, there have been a few times where myself (ive seen) another driver held up immensely, not because they cant make the pass, but because theres c car that's lag is just enough to be on both sides of the track at once if you know what i mean. To go along with what youre saying i hope that people can do their best like you said to alleviate the issues because it changes the racing, like trying to pass a guy leaking fluids. All in all though it hasnt been that bad has it? I havent really seen anyone get clean punted mid race yet?
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ROSCOEpCOTRAIN


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PostSubject: Re: Restarts   Thu 05 Jun 2014, 6:05 am

Sadface... Misunderstood again...
I was only saying rolling starts are not complicated
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Simcik

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PostSubject: Re: Restarts   Tue 10 Jun 2014, 11:06 am

My initial reason for looking this up comes from the extreme advantage the AWD cars have on standing starts. Doing 1 at first is fine with me, but having AWD cars move up 2-4 positions on the start, then running 4 laps, getting strung out, and then having to do a standing restart again, where the AWDs can again get another 2-4 positions, seems silly and unfair to me.

Furthermore, such as was the case with Road America, if a RWD car manages to hold off an AWD car on the start, and then gets a decent lead, having to give up not only that lead, but having to once again defend the position on a restart in which it is very outclassed is frustrating. A rolling start would make the restarts more tolerable in such cases, and more fair. The AWD would still have a slight advantage, and the field would still be bunched up, but it wouldn't be a "gimmie" for the AWD.

And for once, I actually agree with and understand Roscoe.  Shocked 
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SaintedPlacebo4

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PostSubject: Re: Restarts   Tue 10 Jun 2014, 2:50 pm

Its kind of the way the cookie crumbles i guess. Its how they do it in PWC and they are fine, i wonder what the real pwc drivers think of this topic.
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Simcik

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PostSubject: Re: Restarts   Tue 10 Jun 2014, 2:58 pm

No, that's not how the real PWC does it. They do one standing start, and that's it. Any subsequent restarts are rolling starts. (I didn't know that either, until I looked it up.)
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SaintedPlacebo4

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PostSubject: Re: Restarts   Tue 10 Jun 2014, 4:16 pm

We back out of the room, its a null. Its as if we never started. If that was to be implemented than we shouldnt back out of the lobby. That procedure is just a yellow flag on lap one.
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PostSubject: Re: Restarts   Tue 10 Jun 2014, 4:29 pm

For organizational purposes it makes more sense for the real PWC to not do another standing start. They have pre race ceramony, and have to get 40+ cars all in the correct spots within a very narrow time window.

We have 16 max. with their usually only being 8-10 in GTS and 12-14 in GT. Its much easier for us to restart a room if things go bad.

I also don't want to take opportunities away from the AWD cars. They may have a killer launch, but they don't have the top end and overall acceleration that the heavier muscle cars have.
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Simcik

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PostSubject: Re: Restarts   Tue 10 Jun 2014, 5:01 pm

SaintedPlacebo4 wrote:
We back out of the room, its a null. Its as if we never started. If that was to be implemented than we shouldnt back out of the lobby. That procedure is just a yellow flag on lap one.

To be clear, the PWC rules state that if a start is aborted, even if cars have not left the grid, that there will be no standing restart. (I was kinda surprised by that.)
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Simcik

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PostSubject: Re: Restarts   Tue 10 Jun 2014, 5:04 pm

StalkerStang wrote:
For organizational purposes it makes more sense for the real PWC to not do another standing start. They have pre race ceramony, and have to get 40+ cars all in the correct spots within a very narrow time window.

We have 16 max. with their usually only being 8-10 in GTS and 12-14 in GT. Its much easier for us to restart a room if things go bad.

I also don't want to take opportunities away from the AWD cars. They may have a killer launch, but they don't have the top end and overall acceleration that the heavier muscle cars have.

Understood, and not trying to complain or whine or anything. I was curious and looked it up and thought I'd share what I found.

You are very right that the real-world and Forza are not the same, and you're points are very well understood. I was just trying to be as real-world as possible by bringing a "petition" or "motion" to the race directors attention. It's been defeated. It's not a big deal.  Cool  Racing is still fun!
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